のが上手(じょうず)To be good at, Proficient

Most Recent Replies (12 in total)

• 

  Jake

  **be good at

  • proficient**

  Structure

  • Verb + の・が・上手

  View on Bunpro

• 

  ilyannn

  It sounds like you would need to use the copula here:

  Xのがじょうずだ or です

  But the examples only have it for です and not for だ. Is that a spoken language phenomenon or is this usage completely correct grammatically?

• 

  matt_in_mito

  上手だ。 is grammatically correct but I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone use it. If they want to say it casually they just say 上手 as it is.

• 

  Megumin

  Is there any rule to when の can be dropped?

  Bunpro is not accepting the answer as correct or as close when you drop it, so I assume there’s a reason for it but I can’t seem to find it.

• 

  FredKore

  You need the の after a verb to make it a noun.
  … is good at [verb]-ing.
  (Since が marks the subject, you can also think of it as:
  his/her/my [verb]-ing is good.)

  If you were saying a noun is good, you can drop の:
  トムが上手ですよ。Tom is good! / It’s Tom who’s good!
  (Note: There’s a separate discussion about using は・が here.)

• 

  nekoyama

  The reason it’s not allowed by bunpro is that bunpro teaches modern Japanese, where the の is required before the subject marker が due to the lack of a distinct 連体形 that could be a grammatical subject (but is merged with the 終止形 in modern Japanese).

  You can however sometimes drop の between a verb in dictionary form and が when voice-acting an anime character that speaks some kind of “ancient being” 役割語. They don’t often say 上手 but they do like giving commands with するが良い etc. There also are some surviving expressions like するが故に which is also old-fashioned, but not restricted to demon lords.

• 

  Megumin

  Thanks for the replies.

  Shouldn’t then Bunpro say that it sounds old fashioned like it does in other points instead of saying straight up that it’s wrong?

• 

  Megumin

  Maybe I should ping someone from the content team for input as this is a muted category, might not be as visible.

  @Asher , do you mind? I know there are other grammar points, but I can’t remember which ones especifically that do have the “close but…” when you drop the の. Is there any reason of why doesn’t have this as a “close but…” other than the ones that have been explained to me above?

• 

  Asher

  For this one, it would be because の is performing the task of nominalization (turning the verb phrase into a noun). Due to this, dropping the の would be ungrammatical in this case. Fred had it right in his explanation.

  There are certainly cases where there will be exceptions, but whether these exceptions will be classified grammatical or not can depend on many things.

• 

  Megumin

  Shouldn’t a almost message pop-up then when が上手 is followed by a noun, because technically it can be dropped? Same for が下手.

  Is not a big deal, just being curious. I can just hit OOPS and move on if it’s accepted in those situations, but not accepted enough to be added as a warning or alternative.

• 

  Asher

  Basically, all sentences are made up of 主語 (words that can be a sentence topic), and 述語 (words that describe the sentence topic). Because が will always mark the 主語, が cannot (or should not) mark a verb.

  Basically 主語 and 述語 work like this

  何が・誰が = 主語
  どうする・どんなだ = 述語

  Because the の turns する into a 何が, it allows it to become a subject.

  We could/should perhaps think of a clue to go with grammar points like this.

• 

  Megumin

  Alright, thank you everyone for the input.

  Highly appreciated.

• 

  mrnoone

  @Megumin @Asher @nekoyama @FredKore
  By the way, が in Verb + がゆえ comes from classical Japanese, the が was used for some time in the past to mark an attribute of the follwing noun, just like の does today. The attributive usage was the original use of が, there was no “subject” particle in the beginning.

  You can see it in some modern set expressions like 我が社 (私の会社) = one’s company, 我が家 (私の家) - one’s house and so on.

  This usage also applied to verbs that were in 連体形 (attributive form, like @nekoyama mentioned in modern Japanese it has become the basic form of the verb, but in the past verbs had separate 終止形 (final form) to which auxilliary verbs were attached), you can see it used with expressions like